257: Catalysts of Culture, With Julie Ann Sullivan

April 4, 2023

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Dr. Pelè (00:00):

Hello, happy people. Welcome to the Profitable Happiness Podcast. Hello everyone. This is Dr. Pelè with the Profitable Happiness Podcast. And oh my goodness, Julie Ann Sullivan, you are fired up and I'm so excited to learn everything that you have to teach us about culture and high-performing organizations. But, you know, Julie Ann, I'm gonna tell you something that you actually don't know about how I discovered you. I went to good old Google, and I asked, show me the best books on culture, on implementation of high performance in organizations. Your book was right there, <laugh>, and I was so excited. And I, I read through and I was like, oh, I wanna learn from her. But anyway, um, you know, you are just an expert in this field. It's all about how you create big results from small things that people can do. Um, so Juliet, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. How are you doing today?

Julie Ann Sullivan (01:04):

I'm great. I, uh, you know, listen to a couple of your podcasts. The energy's so high. I love that.

Dr. Pelè (01:12):

<laugh>. Well, you know, we were talking before we got started about how you have to create your own energy, right? You gotta create your own culture and things like that. So yes, we absolutely wanna make our own profitable happiness. So, Juliet, let's go way to the beginning, and I'm gonna ask you my signature question, but I'm gonna take some advice from you. I'm not gonna call it a problem, <laugh>,

Julie Ann Sullivan (01:35):


Dr. Pelè (01:36):

I'm gonna call it a challenge. Tell us what the core challenge is, uh, that organizations are dealing with, that you help them solve when you talk about being a catalyst of culture.

Julie Ann Sullivan (01:48):

Well, uh, one of the things we discussed was, you like the word problem, and I say the word problem makes people do this. Yeah,

Dr. Pelè (01:56):

Yeah. Tighten up

Julie Ann Sullivan (01:57):

<laugh>, right? Yeah. I don't wanna talk about it or issue or anything like that. And when you approach people with a challenge, that means that's something they can overcome, right? That's part of that definition in all the work I do, whether it's consulting or presentations or coaching, which is my fave mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I would say 80% of my work has to do with communication in one way or another. Mm. And communication is not only how, let's say, leadership communicates to its workforce, but even a bigger element, I feel, is what kind of culture or space does leadership create so that the workforce feels safe and heard to communicate to them. Mm-hmm. Like, is there, have you created a culture where people can say, you know what, I found a better way to do X Or do they feel like, uh, no one's gonna listen to me anyway?

Or if I ask a question, I'll get in trouble, or I'll be thought of as dumb, or whatever. So culture incorporates communication back and forth. I have found in my coaching career, especially that people sometimes a, don't know what words to use. Mm-hmm. And, and, and we live in a society right now where conflict is huge. It's like everything's a conflict. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be. And that depends upon the words you use, the approach you have, the respect you have for the difference in other human beings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So communication is, is my, I I wanna say it's the foothold of everything else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And even below that layer, the foundation has to do with deepening self-knowledge. I call it d s k.

Dr. Pelè (04:05):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie Ann Sullivan (04:06):

We have to constantly learn about ourselves and how we're acting and reacting mm-hmm. To make anything else happen.

Dr. Pelè (04:15):

You know, what's so powerful about what you do is that you walk the talk, even from our example today, where you helped me adjust my communication from calling these problems to calling them challenges. That's powerful stuff right there. And you showed me inaction exactly how that works, <laugh>. I love that, by the way. But, you know, let's, let's go way back because I'm curious to, to learn, and I'm sure other people would wanna know, how did you become the, the, uh, the catalyst of culture? Um, how did you write that wonderful book? Um, you know, where did you come from in terms of the, the things that led you to believe what you believe and to do the work you do today?

Julie Ann Sullivan (04:52):

All right. Well, this is a pretty interesting story. <laugh>

Dr. Pelè (04:56):


Julie Ann Sullivan (04:56):

<affirmative>, um, uh, I had a family that talked a lot, so that was number one. We did communicate a lot. Um, I had a very severe tragedy in my life. My father was killed in a mid-air collision when I was seven years old. Um, so that shaped my life. I went to college and I got a degree in psychology. And after I did that, I made a promise to myself to learn about human behavior every day, either about myself or other people. I would do that through taking workshops or reading or listening. And as I've gotten older, it's just being aware, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> being in a situation, I was in a situation the other day where I was doing some interviews for a project and it was all about listening and listening to people have completely different views than I do. Yeah. And I literally was walking around my house going, thank you so much for this opportunity to listen to somebody <laugh>, who is a completely, you know, a, a a view that just drives me nuts.

But I sat through it and listened and learned about me and about them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Anyway, um, I ran away and lived in a ski resort for seven years with no real skills from a bachelor's in <laugh> in psychology. Um, had many different jobs. Ended up being a bookkeeper, and I thought that was fun. It was like putting a puzzle together. Yeah. Keep forward. I went back to school for my M B A and I became a C P A for many decades. Wow. Then I didn't wanna learn anymore about accounting <laugh>, and I just didn't. I was done. Yeah, you're done. And one thing I know is you gotta keep learning no matter what you're doing. I don't care if you're a dancer or a CPA or a lawyer or a brick layer mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you've got, cuz things change. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when I was done with that, I kind of sat back and I keep something called a fuzzy file.

Hmm. And my fuzzy file, and they're pretty big now. I have, several of them are letters, cards, emails that people have written me about how I've changed their life in a positive way. Hmm. So I was looking through there, there was only three or four pages in there cuz I had done some presentations and I thought, oh, I'm gonna a, a, a professional speaker. I had no idea what that meant. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I went down that road and I realized that now I understood human behavior really, really well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I understood how businesses worked from the inside out. And at that time it was 2009, the phrase employee engagement came to view. Yeah. And I went, perfect. I'm a perfect match for that. And I even know Bob Keller who has employee engagement.com, that's his website mm-hmm. <affirmative> website. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Um, and so I started work on that on employee engagement, which kind of developed into the employee experience what happens before they have a job onboarding at the job exit interview mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then that became culture. Like what do we create to make that employee experience what we wanted to be. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now you started at the very beginning and you said you have to create culture cuz we discussed before we started, if you don't, culture will create itself. Yes. And that's, I've never seen that as a good outcome. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so then I started a podcast cuz Yeah, let's do that. And <laugh>, I lightly stalked 64 C-suite leaders to talk to me about their culture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, these were people who had created great cultures and sustained them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I had picked 14 to do this book, catalyst of Culture. And, um, it, it was an amazing experience mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Because I talked to people who had worldwide companies, um, like w D 40, um, and I talked to people who had small moving companies mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, and I also talked to, so Gary Ridge was from WD 40 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I also talked to Chuck Runyon mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who at the time had the largest franchising business in the world, anytime Fitness.

Dr. Pelè (09:54):

Wow. That is a, a just a fascinating story. And I think, um, by the way, Bob Kellerher, uh, is, is is someone that I, I quote quite a bit in in my work as well. He's

Julie Ann Sullivan (10:06):

An awesome human.

Dr. Pelè (10:07):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I have to say, Julianne, that you, you have a saying, you say culture is a puzzle. And I think that, I love that. I love that context because what you're saying is, first of all, it's possible to build this puzzle, right. Even though it's not complete right now, it's possible to build it. And when you build it, some of the advantages are getting you the best talent, being able to keep them having fresh ideas, even making more money and having a, a more profitable organization. Let's talk about how these things come up. How about using your methodologies and experience? How do we build culture in an organization?

Julie Ann Sullivan (10:47):

Well, from the book I came up after interviewing all of these people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I realized they had four attributes in common mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I call them the four pillars Yeah. Of a flourishing culture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And remember I said the foundation is that D s k, deepening self-knowledge that goes on forever. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, you talk about a puzzle and the interesting thing is as businesses grow and change, right. Because no business that's stagnant is gonna be really profitable Yep. Or as profitable as they could be. Um, so are what the challenges are going to be. But here's, here's the four attributes or the four pillars mm-hmm. <affirmative> the first one, which you know, is my favorite is communication. Yep. And building that communication, what people know, what people, uh, are able to say how people feel valued for their communication, how much communication goes on, how to stop gossip mm-hmm.

<affirmative>, because gossip is like ripping a feather pillow on the top of a mountain and then trying to go collect 'em while you can't. Yep. So you need to be transparent. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, five years ago vulnerability became the sexy word for leaders. Yeah. Right. It's okay, I don't know everything. It's okay to say, I don't know, I need your help, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. So communication is one. The second one is, these great leaders were all open to new ideas. Mm-hmm. They weren't stuck in, well we've always done it this way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I work with the company recently who said, oh, well we created this process six years ago. Six years ago, and you've never reviewed it. <laugh>, I bet if we went out to the people who are using this process, they would have some ideas and you've never opened up that channel that would make this process even more efficient.

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is more profitability. Right? Yeah. And not only that, when you take new ideas from your workforce, people feel valued. And I, I have this philosophy that most people wanna be acknowledged and valued. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Um, and that can be done in many different ways, but people don't wanna go to work. Most people, there'll be always be some, most people don't wanna go to work and be invisible. Yeah. Right. They wanna be appreciated. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. So the third concept, cuz we could talk about this for hours right. Is continuous learning, and again, this is on every level. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the continuous learning can be through being open to new ideas mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the businesses that I found, like my friend Evan Hackle, who gives money every year so his people can learn something new and it doesn't have to be related to work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what he asked for in return is that they come back to the company and teach everyone else whatever that may be, whoever's interested. It could be knitting, it could be a new app. Right. So all across the board, so they're given the opportunity and the time mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to learn also. And when you say to somebody you wanna take guitar lessons, go for it. Yeah. Right. Because maybe that's how that person gets peace in their life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and sign

Dr. Pelè (14:57):

Me up for that one.

Julie Ann Sullivan (14:58):

<laugh>. Yeah, of course you are <laugh> and, and, and you know, the idea of people leaving their work at home <laugh> or work their work at work and their private life at home. Especially now with hybrid, it's all blown up. It was never really, people just kind of faked it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's, that's more important than ever. And the last, um, in no particular order, these are mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, is having a safe environment. Hmm. And that is physical and psychological.

Dr. Pelè (15:35):

Psychological. Yeah. You know, I have to say, um, as I was listening to these four, and by the way, these are, these are brilliant. I love lists because it just helps us focus. Right. There's so much we could talk about, but this really helps us focus, you know, I have found that the, the communication thing you mentioned is so <laugh>, it's almost like, it, it, it's, it's, it's, so it's, there's a, there's a challenge within it because people say they know everything. They, they want to communicate well, but then sometimes they just don't get the words out in, in ways that are sincere enough for employees to believe that they really care. I'm talking about leaders now or that they really are, you know, being supportive, you know, how can people, are there any mind blocks that are stopping leaders, for example, in being able to sincerely build culture the way you've proposed? Are, are there some fundamental mindset shifts that people have to come with in order to be better at just showing up and, and really being believed in this process?

Julie Ann Sullivan (16:42):

I think that anytime, um, an organization sets up, we're gonna change our culture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's some internal marketing, which I always feel is missing in any kind of change mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is necessary mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, when I do create surveys mm-hmm. <affirmative> or a company, I will only create the survey and run it if they, um, commit to, um, sharing the good, the bad and the ugly. Hmm. If they're not willing to do that, it's a waste of time and I don't wanna do it. So do I lose customers because of that? Clients? Yes. But that's okay because they don't r to me, they don't really wanna grow. Hmm. You have to be able to go to the workforce and say, this is what we heard isn't working. Yeah. So we're going to, I'll just use an example, create this committee and we want some people to come forward to work on solutions for this mm-hmm.

<affirmative>. Right. What happens then? Then people go, oh my gosh, you actually are listening to what we're saying isn't working because we're actually doing it and you are not. Right. That's the other thing. Right. People in a, in a every day, they know better than the leaders of the company. So I think that that's part of it. And then the other part is patience. So I had a client that decided they were gonna have town hall meetings. Okay. And they were gonna go out and say, ask us any question you want. And, um, my friend Ashley Wynette, who now works for GM here in, um, the States mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when I interviewed him, he was the head of Holden. He was a HR director at Holden and Australia. And I always told him he got the promotion, obviously because of our podcast

Dr. Pelè (18:48):


Julie Ann Sullivan (18:52):

But anyway, so he was great at having these town hall meetings cuz they did it all long. But if you're gonna start that,

Probably no one's gonna ask a question. Yeah. You'll probably have to take something from an anonymous suggestion box or make up your own to get it going. And then one time someone's gonna raise their hand mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they're gonna ask a question and you'll see the whole room turn to them and say, Hmm. How are they gonna answer this? Yeah. Right. That's the test. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's trust growing. You can't just say, oh, we're gonna have this and everyone's just gonna jump on board, <laugh>, it doesn't work that way. Right. So trust happens over time. So patience is, uh, a part of that. Yeah.

Dr. Pelè (19:44):

If that

Julie Ann Sullivan (19:44):

Answers your question.

Dr. Pelè (19:45):

Yeah. It, it totally answers my question. And, and actually you touched on another aspect of your list here that I wanted to touch on, which is the safety component. You know, this especially the psychological safety. You know, when you, when you talk about people bravely sharing their opinions, I mean, that has to be, as you said, grown through trust and patience. But I have to tell you, I, if there's one thing I've seen over and over in organizations, it's really this lack of psychological safety. You might, you, you know, you ask a bunch of leaders and they'll all go, we know what that means, <laugh>. We, we know how to, we, we know all these things, uh, intellectually, but are your employees really safe around you or do they feel like they're gonna get fired the minute you say the truth in your opinion? So I'm wondering, are there any ways to build psychological safety, of course trust and all those kinds of things, are there any sort of nuggets or tips that you have for using psychological safety to create culture that the kind of culture that we're talking about? Positive cultures?

Julie Ann Sullivan (20:51):

Well, I'll give you an example that is actually happening with my, one of my current, uh, coaching clients. Hmm. Um, I'm helping her deal with some things at work. And one of the things that work for her is a challenge in communication with a coworker. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, her manager, mediates their discussions. I thought that was amazing because again, if, depending upon the size of your company right, there's different layers you report to this person, this person. So c e o doesn't really know there is nothing worse. Well, I probably shouldn't say nothing. <laugh> one of the <laugh>. Well, you know, the biggest reason why people leave their job, right?

Dr. Pelè (21:41):

Uh, yeah.

Julie Ann Sullivan (21:43):

<laugh> bad managers.

Dr. Pelè (21:44):

Yeah, yeah. Right there. <laugh>.

Julie Ann Sullivan (21:46):

Yeah. Bad managers. So, um, there has to be some, uh, communication so that people can tell you when a manager, supervisor, team captain, whatever you wanna call them, is not doing their job, it's not listening to people. Right. If I'm in a job where I have a manager and I don't even like that word cuz that sounds to me like they're managing or heard. Yeah. <laugh>. So I like,

Dr. Pelè (22:20):

Like communication. Let's get that word right. <laugh>,

Julie Ann Sullivan (22:23):

I'm, I'm a word freak. Yeah. <laugh>. So if my team lead, um, isn't allowing me to come to them and I say, oh, I'm having problems with Sally or John, we, we just came to seem to keep butting heads and they say, work it out. Yeah. Well then they're not listening, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or well, what do you mean they could say and give them some ideas? And this is why it's so important that communication skills be taught to everyone. Hmm. So when somebody says to me, oh, communication, that's a soft skill that just ires me, <laugh>.

Dr. Pelè (23:07):

I mean soft, not, not like tangible hard

Julie Ann Sullivan (23:11):

Because I think it's essential. How do you have a company if you can't communicate? Yeah. Um, and that's something that a lot of companies don't spend time and money on teaching people how to communicate. I used to run a workshop called Thanks for Being a Pain <laugh>, and it was all about how to deal with people that drive you crazy. And I, I just did that. I did a all day workshop for a company and part of it was tell me what person drives you crazy and put it in this box. And we passed it around. There was like a hundred people and then I just did like a giant coaching session mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I sat on a stool, I pulled out, oh, narcissist, how do you deal with a narcissist mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just talked about what, how you deal with a narcissist. You can't really change anyone else, so what are you gonna do? Yeah. And, um, that always goes over really well because no matter what I pull out of the box Yeah. You know, half or three quarters of the room is doing this <laugh> I've dealt with one of those, you know? Yeah.

Dr. Pelè (24:17):

Yeah. Well, you know, um, I, I, uh, I I would love to see how the process of building culture, you know, sort of intersects with the idea of happiness, employee happiness, what I call profitable happiness. And as you know, we talked about this a little bit, you know, a lot of people when they think of the word happiness, they're thinking of sort of the, the, let's have fun, let's pursue pleasure. You know, that kind which is important. Which is important and, and which is, is is actually only part of the definition of happiness. Right. There's also the happiness that that is about loving what you do and feeling fulfilled, doing that, having a sense of mission and purpose and engagement. How do you help employees be happy and how does that sort of interface with the idea of building, uh, great cultures?

Julie Ann Sullivan (25:09):

It's interesting because it happens on its own. Ooh. As you build a better culture, people are happier, period. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I wanna build a culture where people get up in the morning and they say, I get to go to work at x, y, Z today, as opposed to, oh, I'm only gonna work

Dr. Pelè (25:35):

<laugh> with, with those same facial expressions. Yeah.

Julie Ann Sullivan (25:40):

Somewhere in that spectrum, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think that again, when people are acknowledged and valued and listened to and appreciated, they have more of the feeling of, I get to go to X, Y, Z because I'm giving. Yeah. Now there's another part of this I talk, talked about internal marketing mm-hmm.

Dr. Pelè (26:05):


Julie Ann Sullivan (26:06):

And part of that also is, uh, making sure educating mm-hmm. <affirmative> your workforce about their bigger gift to the universe. I'll give you a small example mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, a company made ID bracelets. Okay. Or people who did sports on their own. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'll make this really quick. A guy was wearing one of those ID bracelets. He was riding his bike, he had a heart attack. Um, somebody looked at the bracelet, somebody called the ambulance, somebody called his wife. She got to the scene cuz it was only a couple of blocks from where she was and drove, you know, rode to the hospital where he eventually passed away mm-hmm. <affirmative> the comp. And then the lady wrote this beautiful letter about if it wasn't for their ID bracelet, then she wouldn't have had the last moments with her husband. They made sure that every employee saw and heard that letter. In fact, they read it out loud at a company-wide meeting.

Dr. Pelè (27:17):


Julie Ann Sullivan (27:18):

Because when people in any endeavor understand how they serve the greater good

Dr. Pelè (27:27):


Julie Ann Sullivan (27:29):

They take greater pride in what they do. Mm-hmm. Another example was a, a break company for airlines mm-hmm. <affirmative> that I worked with and on everything and everywhere it said we've saved lives. Hmm. So that the person who was putting in a widget on an assembly line knew that they were saving lives just as much as anyone else in the company.

Dr. Pelè (27:57):

Hmm. Hmm. Y you know, you know what you've mentioned a couple of concepts I really, really appreciate such as internal marketing, you know, not everyone who thinks of the word marketing would really put it inside the context of how to build culture. Right. Um, and, and, uh, you know, I'm sure that's all within also change management because if you Yeah. Change anything, you're gonna have to work on that. I would love to get your thoughts on how, you know, you talk about deepening self-knowledge. So is that an individual effort and and how exactly does that contribute to the idea of being a catalyst, uh, for the greater culture?

Julie Ann Sullivan (28:37):

Deepening self-knowledge is a deliberate choice that people make in every moment or don't make.

Dr. Pelè (28:45):


Julie Ann Sullivan (28:47):

Uh, every interaction I have, uh, not only those that make me feel good is an opportunity for me to learn about me. Hmm. How I act and how I react, what I appreciate, what I might have more appreciation for, but it is a deliberate choice. Do I make it every second of every day? Hell no.

Dr. Pelè (29:20):

<laugh>. Heck no. <laugh>. Oh, sorry.

Julie Ann Sullivan (29:27):

Um, but it's something I strive for. Um, now I've gotten to a point in my life because I've done it enough that it's become a habit that I notice when I'm in those uncomfortable situations and my brain turns to what can I learn right now? What can I learn about me? What can I learn about them? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, most of the time we don't know people's stories. There's another story. Joan had a desk at an office, they moved her desk to another part of the office mm-hmm. <affirmative> and she freaked out. Everyone thought she was just overreacting. Come to find out as she was growing up, Joan was, uh, a daughter of someone who was in the service and they moved all the time. She never got any connections. So any kind of change like that kind of triggered that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we don't know what happened in people's lives mm-hmm. That triggered them to have a reaction. So instead of being judgmental, maybe there's some information we can learn. Yeah. That's just a a little example.

Dr. Pelè (30:36):

Yeah. No, and, and that's, that's, uh, just so true. I think, you know, as I listen to you and as I learn your general viewpoint here, you know, what I'm hearing is that all these little things, these communication, uh, things, you know, deepening self-knowledge, individually, just taking every small opportunity, this stuff all adds up to create the culture change that you, um, help people with. And it's really focusing on those small things. Um, t tell tell us what you are excited about right now. Do you have any new projects coming up, something going on we should know about <laugh> a and let us know where people can find you online, uh, to, to get access to those things

Julie Ann Sullivan (31:15):

Super easy. Julianne sullivan.com and without an e. Yeah. Super easy. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm everywhere. Yeah. You put Julianne Sullivan in Google, you'll find me like you did. Yeah,

Dr. Pelè (31:27):

Exactly. <laugh> and or maybe type in best book on culture and you'll, you'll get you.

Julie Ann Sullivan (31:35):

Okay. <laugh>. Um, so I'm excited about that. I'm actually, uh, I have a few slots left for this, uh, month on, um, coaching. And I just wanna say a few words about coaching. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that is coaching is not just for the bad kids. Mm. That's, that's what I wanna say to leaders. To me, coaching should be a part of the growth of Annie, emerging leader. We can all get better at everything. Always <laugh>. I don't like using all encompassing words, but I'm a true believer that everyone can get better at everything. Absolutely. None of, I've never met a perfect soul yet. Hmm. Right. And um, so I wish that, uh, leadership would realize that and just make it like a regular occurrence. Right. Yeah. Because there's something different about talking to somebody outside of your organization. There's something freer about that, whether it's me or someone else.

Yeah. I just think that's a a I would like to see that grow. Yeah. Um, what else? Uh, <laugh>, I dunno, there's always things going on mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but coaching, I, I'm kind of moving my, uh, focus into coaching cuz I really enjoy it and um, I get great feedback from it. So that's what I'm doing. I think I told you I bought the rights to the book Catalyst of Culture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there's been a reissue of that and I'm excited about that. Yeah. And I've also gotten myself involved as a host for online gaming really? With a company called Weave, W e V E, Uhhuh <affirmative>. And they do engagement games, employee engagement games. They do 'em live and they do 'em online and they just do an amazing, amazing, um, uh, work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I can give you and I will give you the link and you can put it in the notes. Oh. Um, if people wanna do that. Cause that's a lot of fun. In fact, I just trained on a new game and it's gonna be about climate change.

Dr. Pelè (33:54):

Wow. Uh, and, and as we know, again, fun, another thing not too many people would connect to, you know, engagement and profitability and so on. Powerful, uh, way to go is just to have fun <laugh> when you're

Julie Ann Sullivan (34:08):

Doing Yeah. Let me add this too. So like this day long workshop I just did mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I used no PowerPoints. They said we don't want PowerPoints. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was so excited about that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I can play games all day with people mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the main thing about playing games, I'll call them, is to communicate how to do it mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then to do a debrief. Now that we've done this, this is what I was looking for you to learn from it. Right. That's really important, uh, is the debrief. And there are many ways to teach people very important tools that they can use and yet have them have fun. I think I told you in the beginning, I'm a certified laughter leader and trainer. Yes. And I've been doing that for over 10 years also. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and there's a lot to learn through laughter. It's all science-based and anyway, so there's a lot of different ways to help your entire organization grow and be everyone be their best.

Dr. Pelè (35:22):

Mm mm Powerful stuff.

Julie Ann Sullivan (35:24):

Simple solutions, big results.

Dr. Pelè (35:26):

Exactly. Exactly. Uh, Julianne, I, how, what can I say? I, I feel like I've been through a masterclass of culture building. This is awesome stuff. Thank you for taking very difficult and large concepts and just making them easy to understand. And thanks for being a guest on the Profitable Happiness Podcast. It

Julie Ann Sullivan (35:44):

Was totally my pleasure. Thanks.

Dr. Pelè (35:47):

All right.

Dr. Pelè (35:49):

Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness Podcast. For more episodes, visit dr pa.com. And remember, get happy first and success will follow.